Sawaki Takeyasu – El Shaddai: Ascension of the Metatron

At E3 2011, I got the chance to talk to Sawaki Takeyasu, the director of El Shaddai: Ascension of the Metatron, along with Ignition Entertainment marketing director Hanako Uenishi.

Mollie: Let me start with what may or may not be a simple question: what did you want to accomplish with El Shaddai?

Sawaki Takeyasu: That’s a big answer. One thing for sure was the visual presentation; I wanted to make the visual ideas I had come to life in a way that no other game can do. That was definitely something I wanted to accomplish, and I feel that I did. Also, I wanted to try making a game with absolutely no HUD (heads-up display) that would still be fun to play. Those were the two goals I definitely wanted to accomplish.

Mollie: Games without HUDs are becoming more and more of a trend, especially among Western developers. Do you think going that route really does help players get immersed into the world of the game, or is it more of a gimmick?

Takeyasu: The reason I wanted to try getting rid of the on-screen user interface was geared more toward creating an experience where players could feel that deeper immersion. I didn’t look at it as a gimmick, but more getting rid of it for that benefit, so that, in a way, players feel like they’re actually entering into a movie. I’ve heard from people who have played El Shaddai that they feel that immersion thanks in part to that decision, so I know it worked.

Mollie: When we spoke at E3 last year, we talked about the question of if players would understand the storyline of El Shaddai or not, and how with some products, such as the Japanese anime Evangelion, fans may not necessarily understand all of the aspects of what they saw, but they can still enjoy it. From the reactions you’ve received so far from Japanese players, do you think they’re understanding the game?

Takeyasu: Since launching the game in Japan, we’ve been interacting with fans at different events. I’ve heard from them that when they play, they connect deeply with El Shaddai‘s world, and they don’t want to step out of it. We have these fans come to us, and tell us how much they love the game. There are players, such as on (popular Japanese video sharing website) Nico Nico Douga, who are deciphering all of the hints in the game, and making videos for other people to help explain the game’s world. All of us really enjoy seeing fans doing things like that, and I think people are understanding the game.

Mollie: Has there been anything players haven’t understood or enjoyed as much as you initially hoped that they would?

Takeyasu: I left some parts of the story intentionally vague, so that players would have the space to imagine the answers for themselves and fill in those details. However, I’ve been getting feedback in regard to some parts of the game that the story isn’t told well, or isn’t told clearly enough. Even though I intended for those elements not to be there—because I wanted people to draw their own conclusions—that’s been the reaction.

Mollie: Part of that might be the way games have changed over time. Back on the NES, games couldn’t tell their story via voice acting or CG cutscenes or anything like that, so plots were often simpler or left more to the imagination. Now, games can be far more complex and express more in those regards, so maybe players have become trained to just expect that everything will be explained to them by the end.

Takeyasu: I think maybe you’re right. I wanted to leave it mysterious in some parts, but then we get feedback saying, “We want more story in those parts!”

Mollie: Were there any elements in the game where you had to hold back on what you wanted to do? Maybe you wanted to do something too fantastical, or wanted to tell to much story, but in order to make the game better, you had to tone down your ideas.

Takeyasu: I’m always thinking about the future, like sequels or spin-offs or whatever, so I embed different hints into the games. I know that this episode will connect to a possible future episode, and then that would connect to something else, and that’s all in my head. So if I embed those kinds of elements, sometimes the rest of the team doesn’t understand them or why they exist. Or, because I put in so many hints in regard to something, other people expect that there be more revealed in the game than I planned to reveal, and they want that explanation. That’s probably why I keep getting those questions about different elements of El Shaddai‘s story. So, to answer your question, maybe I’d say it is that embedding of hints.

Mollie: You mentioned Nico Nico Douga, and there was something I wanted to ask you in connection with that. Various elements of the game have broken out and become memes online, especially the phrase “Souna soubi de daijyoubu ka” (“Are you sure that’s enough armor?”) and its response, “Daijyoubu da, mondai nai” (“It’s fine, no problem.”). That exchange became this huge meme among Japanese fans, and even some English-speaking ones, and it won the Net Buzzword Awards 2010 GP in Japan. We now see a number of elements, both good and bad, break away from games and grow into a life of their own online—do this think this is a good thing for gaming, and something developers should embrace?

Takeyasu: I get that question a lot; I think it’s a good thing. When I created those lines, it was as a part of a conversation between Lucifel and Enoch. If that conversation becomes a meme, people would use it, and it’s something where you want to have fun saying the first line to somebody, and then having them respond with the second. I never expected it to go as far as it did, though. For El Shaddai, I think it’s a good thing. I think when elements like that become part of the bigger culture, it always starts when you’re being made fun of. At least, that’s usually how it starts: as entertainment. I think it helped established the brand in Japan.

Mollie: Another aspect of fan interaction that has blown up recently, especially in Japan, is the use of Twitter by Japanese developers. Previously, the divide between the people making a game and the people playing it was rather large, and there was little communication between the two sides. Now, via Twitter, I can tell those developers directly that I loved their game, or that their game wasn’t enjoyable. Do you think communication like that helps in game development?

Takeyasu: Although I understand that there are some developers that appreciate that feedback, for me, I don’t use Twitter, and thus don’t get that direct feedback. I don’t necessarily feel that it would help me create what I need to create. Direct feedback from the end user is one opinion from somebody who is vocal; it’s one personal opinion in terms of liking or disliking something. For me, I need to accommodate a wider range of people, so I feel like I need to shut out things like that to avoid getting confused on what I should be doing. I think there are good sides, but for me, I’m not sure it would help.

Mollie: Then I’m curious about other sources of inspiration for you when it comes to game development. In the West, many game developers actively play the competing games in the genre they’re working on, in order to see what other titles are doing right or doing wrong. On the Japanese side, however, it often seems like developers either try to avoid playing other similar games, in order to avoid influence, or they don’t even play games period. Where does your personal style of development tend to fall in that regard?

Takeyasu: I understand what you’re talking about in terms of Japanese developers that are like that. For me, however, I do play a lot of games, both for personal enjoyment and for research. I don’t know that I get influenced by them per say, but when I see an aspect of a particular game that I think was done well, I’m open to the idea of building on those aspects or doing an homage to them, especially if it’s something that has become popular with gamers. Or, sometimes I’ll play a game, and learn what they’re doing in order to try to go in the opposite direction. So, I do enjoy learning about what other games are or aren’t doing, and what players are looking for in that respect.

Mollie: Are there any specific games you’d say gave you inspiration for what you did in El Shaddai?

Takeyasu: Well, the biggest inspiration on El Shaddai I can actually think of is in terms of the music. When I was talking to the game’s soundtrack composer Masato Kouda about the style of music I was wanting, I gave him examples of soundtracks like Superman, Back To The Future, and Star Wars—soundtracks where, from the moment they start, the music is instantly memorable. I wanted the theme of El Shaddai to have that same kind of impact, where it would catch your attention right away.

Mollie: I think one aspect of El Shaddai that people in the West might not understand is the Japanese trend for collaboration. Specifically, how you partnered with EDWIN Jeans in order to produce custom-made jeans based off of those worn by the characters in the game. In the West, game companies typically do things more along the lines of action figures, or art books, or other such ventures. How do you explain that kind of collaboration to a Westerner—that pairing of video games and jeans?

Takeyasu: I personally am a huge fan of jeans. [Laughs] I have hundreds of denim jeans in my collection, and I always wanted my main character to wear jeans. In El Shaddai, that’s the best armor you can get. So, that element was in the game first, and then later we worked out the collaboration with EDWIN. I knew from the start my characters would be wearing jeans as their main armor, which comes from the idea that Lucifel, as an angel, can go anywhere and do whatever he wants. He supports the main character Enoch on his journey, and so Lucifel is giving Enoch all of his armor and weapons. Lucifel has travelled to all different kinds of time periods, but he loves this era of mankind—the year 2010 or so—the most. That’s why he carries a cell phone, and wears jeans, and why he gives Enoch denim as the best armor. I had that base storyline in mind already, and thought that if those jeans actually came to life, not only would it be fun but that it might also help sales. So, I had the idea of having the characters wear jeans first, and when I then found EDWIN Jeans as a partner, I detailed the jeans worn in the game to be based around their brand. I think, even in Japan, it was a very unique promotion, so even in Japan a lot of people didn’t totally understand it. [Laughs] But it became a popular collaboration.

Mollie: So then, being such a jeans maniac, what are your favorite kind of jeans? Beyond EDWIN.

Takeyasu: Well, I like vintage jeans. Levis, Lee, Wranger for example. And of course I have my favorite styles among those, favorite serial numbers, things like that.

Mollie: When I lived in Japan, the vintage jeans market kind of surprised me. I saw pairs of American jeans that maybe I would have just thrown away, but here they were selling for $700 or so. That was a big shock.

Takeyasu: It was probably me buying those jeans. [Laughs]

Mollie: How has the game evolved since its early concepts? From the original concept of the game, until its final version, where there are major points that changed, or elements that couldn’t be done?

Takeyasu: Not really. You’d be surprised if you saw the first trailer of the game from four years ago, when I was presenting the game to investors. It was pretty close to the same game that you see now. A few minor changes here or there, like in terms of armor design or whatever, but for the most part nothing major.

Mollie: In what’s been shown of the game, in marketing, game trailers, or whatnot, you’ve only shown the early portions of the game. Later stages take a vastly different design path in terms of style and  presentation. Was that a conscious choice to only show players those early elements?

Takeyasu: Absolutely, I did that on purpose. I didn’t want to give out too much, because I wanted players to have that surprised when they finally played the game. We controlled PR and marketing closely until launch, and didn’t show a number of the characters. For example, many of the art and information books that came out for El Shaddai before the Japanese launch only had elements in them up until the fifth stage, and nothing from the second half of the game.

Mollie: It’s an interesting idea, as there’s that excitement for players in having no idea what’s coming next. On the other hand, games like Metal Gear Solid 2 tried this, and there was something of a fan backlash as they felt like what they expected and what they got were very different. Is there any danger in trying promotional strategies like this?

Hanako Uenishi: I think it was more of a positive impact that we intended to hide. We featured the big characters like Lucifel and Enoch a lot up until launch, and then there were additional characters that showed up who you didn’t know about until they did. So far, we haven’t gotten any negative feedback in terms of what we hid from players. There were some who laughed when they saw where we took the game in later stages. I think maybe it’s because our game is more to the extreme, compared to a title like Metal Gear Solid 2, so having those kinds of surprises fits.

Mollie: So then, without giving away any secrets, for the players who haven’t played El Shaddai yet, and who have only seen those early portions of the game, what is something interesting or surprising that you could tell them about how the game evolves in its later stages?

Takeyasu:: I promise you that there are different levels and worlds within El Shaddai. You’ve only seen part of the full game, so you can expect to see vastly different things as you progress further into the game. People have been surprised by how different the game gets in those later stages. So, I can promise that you’ll be surprised by what you see and play.

Mollie: When we talked last year, you mentioned that the idea of basing the game around the Bible wasn’t your choice, but a choice made by somebody else. When you’re creating something based off of those types of ideas, where you don’t fully understand them personally, is there any pressure regarding how you have to present them?

Takeyasu:: Of course there is pressure. It’s a theme I’m not totally familiar with, but which is important to many people. Since the request of basing El Shaddai around Biblical themes came from the UK side of UTV Iginition, we had the localization team over there work with us to make sure what we were doing was okay. We’ve corrected things along the way, and we’ve made sure that we wouldn’t be offending people. At the same time, I felt like I had enough room to take those elements and make them into my own original story. So, there was that pressure, but I also had help in that regard, so I always felt comfortable enough to have fun when creating the storyline elements.

Mollie: At that point in our conversation last year, El Shaddai was still being worked on, and it hadn’t been released yet. Now that it’s done, did you end up finding those Biblical aspects interesting?

Takeyasu: Yes, I enjoyed them.

Mollie: In being careful with those kinds of topics, it seems that censorship of certain media aspects has become a growing concern in some areas of Japan, and some have wondered about how this might affect video game development. Have you personally felt any pressure at all in that way?

Takeyasu: No concern really.

Uenishi: I think in Tokyo they’ve had stricter rules recently concerning aspects of sex or violence, but in terms of video game censorship, that’s always been talked about. We try to stay away from the extremes anyhow, because we want more people to be able to play our titles.

Takeyasu: I was aiming for CERO A rating (equivalent to an ESRB rating of E or E 10+), but they said that because the game had punching and kicking, that alone meant we couldn’t have that rating. And when Enoch gets hit, his armor breaks off, which they considered stripping.

Mollie: It’s interesting, because it used to be the case that when games came from Japan to America, violent aspects would many times get censored. The original Resident Evil is a good example of this. Now, however, it feels like it’s almost the opposite: games can show more violence over here, and then when that game goes to Japan, it gets edited for that type of content.

Takeyasu: Yeah, I think so too.

Mollie: What have game developers not tried with video games that you feel like they should be trying?

Takeyasu: I really enjoyed Heavy Rain, which feels like a completely new type of experience that could then be developed even further. I’d like to do a game like that myself, and think more developers should explore unique types of games like that.

Mollie: One last question—in terms of video games, what are you currently most excited about?

Takeyasu: In the short term, of course, I’m excited about the Western launch for El Shaddai. Beyond that, I’m really looking forward to the PS Vita.