Katsura Hashino – Persona 4
Mollie: What is your earliest memory of the Megami Tensei series?
Katsura Hashino: The first title I worked on after I joined Atlus was Shin Megami Tensei: if… where I was put in charge of the Guardian system. Now that I think about it, that Guardian system became the basis of the Persona series, so I’ve been involved with the series since then. Wow, that’s a long time.
Mollie: Tell us a little bit about the Persona brand positioning within the MegaTen universe. It was originally conceived as a light and easy game to introduce players to both the MegaTen series and RPGs themselves. What has changed from that original concept, and what has stayed the same?
Hashino: When Shin Megami Tensei: if… came out, its school setting was well received. So we decided to start a new series that dealt with the inner struggles of young adults, which became Revelations: Persona. Since we actively try to incorporate the latest trends into the Persona series, each title has a distinct feel. However, they all share the fundamental focus of “the human soul.”
Mollie: Can you tell us when Persona 4 development began? Was the decision to develop on PS2 made before or after Persona 3 was released and became so successful?
Hashino: There were ideas thrown around earlier, but we didn’t assemble the team and begin development until after Persona 3‘s release.
Mollie: Did you learn any lessons on Persona 3 that made Persona 4 development easier?
Hashino: Yes. First and foremost, the players’ comments and feedback on Persona 3 and FES that we collected was of great help. And the knowledge we gained from the development of P3 allowed us to spend more time in raising the quality of Persona 4. P3 was also the first title in which I was heavily involved with writing the scenario, so that experience helped me a lot when I worked on P4‘s scenario.
Mollie: In moving from Persona 3 to Persona 4, what elements did you most want to focus on as far as expanding or improving upon what existed in P3? Did these aspects come from things you wanted to do during the development of P3 but weren’t able to, or were these things that you decided you wanted in P4 after you had the chance to look at P3 as a finished product?
Hashino: We wanted to improve Persona 3‘s system—speeding up the story progression, and enhancing the gameplay. In addition, we wanted to make sure Persona 4 wasn’t seen as a retread of P3. To accomplish that, we tried to give the players of P4 a definite goal and a sense of purpose that would keep motivating them as they played through the game. The murder mystery plot was our way of doing that.
Mollie: When designing a heavily character-driven game like Persona, which comes first: Characters or story?
Hashino: The game’s theme and scenario come first. No matter what kind of game it is, you can’t make it in any other fashion.
Mollie: Persona 3 took place in a large city, Persona 4 in a small town. How did the new setting influence game design, characters, and story?
Hashino: I think the setting influenced all aspects of the game deeply. We also chose this setting to have a positive effect on the game’s visuals. A group of youths grow as they try to solve an incident that occurs in a small, rural town—that’s the basis or the framework, and from there we added Persona 4‘s theme of “how individuals process information,” and built the rest of the game.
Mollie: In regards to setting, Persona 4 differs from many other RPGs, where you have a huge world to explore and a wide array of towns instead of one. And yet, since we spent more time in P4‘s town, we come to know it much better and have more attachment to it. How do you feel the difference in scope with P4 helped the game, and were there any ways in which it limited the overall vision?
Hashino: Since the location was the same throughout the game, the cost of creating the environment was lower than the standard in RPG development, allowing us to expand other portions of the game. And staying in the same location is the perfect way to allow the players to sympathize with the daily life that passes in the game. I’m sure many of these players live their lives peacefully, without any drastic changes happening to them. Having said that, if the environment remained the same, you would need plans and goals, or else the days would become dull quickly. Therefore, we decided that there were a minimum number of events and story progressions we had to exceed to keep the game exciting, and that’s where the development cost reached staggering proportions.
Mollie: What inspired the mystery/detective novel theme?
Hashino: There were certain things that provided inspiration, but if I told you what they were, that would be a big spoiler. So I should keep my mouth shut. [laughs]
Mollie: Before its North America release, some fans were concerned that Persona 3 may be criticized due to the use of the gun-like envokers for Persona summoning in the game. Did concerns like these in any way effect the decision for what kind of Persona summoning method would be used in Persona 4?
Hashino: No, we decided on the summoning method based solely on the story’s theme. We believe that we can come up with more interesting ideas by not overreacting to public response.
Mollie: The schedule system used in Persona 3 is greatly expanded on in Persona 4, as now there are many more options available to the player each day, and even in general conversations there are more dialogue options for the player to choose from, sometimes affecting the commu/s.link relationships even outside of specific commu/s.link events. The entire approach feels as if it may have been influenced by western RPGs and simulation games; is the team actually influenced by those games or is it just a coincidence?
Hashino: I think it’s all a coincidence. [laughs] I do like western games, though, so maybe they do affect me subconsciously.
Mollie: How far do you think the Social Link system could be taken? Obviously there needs to continue to be a fine balance between the “RPG” and “Life” aspects of a game like Persona, but do you think the overall idea could support an even deeper social aspect?
Hashino: I think so. The concept of Social Links is that the world consists of many small worlds that are close to each and every one of us, and if the manifestation of one’s heart is the Persona, then the Social Link is the connection between those hearts. That is what’s important, and you don’t need to adhere to its current form, as portrayed in the game. I myself am very interested in seeing how the Social Link system can develop from here.
Mollie: Speaking of the depth of the Social Link system, in the past we’ve seen concepts of playable male and female main protagonists, and the idea of how the Social Links would differ depending on the sex of your characters could be quite interesting. (For example, a character that may be a best friend for the male protagonist could be a boyfriend for the female.) Is it possible that we’ll ever see such an option, or at the very least the return to having a female protagonist as we had for Persona 2: Eternal Punishment?
Hashino: We would need to cut development costs elsewhere in order to include the ability to choose the protagonist’s sex, so we’d have to be very careful. But that’s something we often hear from the Japanese players too, so it’s definitely on our minds.
Mollie: How, overall, do you think the Social Link system has impacted the Persona series? It was an interesting and fresh idea to bring to the game, but there must be the concern that using the idea too many times may cause it to lose that feeling of uniqueness. On the other hand, now that Persona 3 and Persona 4 have become so popular, fans of the series may end up being hugely disappointed if a future title completely removes that aspect.
Hashino: I believe the concept of Social Links is one of the key factors in building the world of Persona, and we put a lot of thought and effort into it. However, if this concept were to expand in the future, I think many of the fans will accept it no matter how different it may seem to be from the previous version, as long as the underlying meaning is the same.
Mollie: The inability to directly control your party members in Persona 3 simulated the feeling of exploring the game with friends very well, making you feel more like the main character and your teammates being actual teammates. With Persona 4, the ability to directly control your teammates was added back in, and while it’s still possible to set them on AI, not taking advantage of the option to control them directly feels almost like a deliberate handicap. How did you and the development team feel about making this change, and do you prefer playing on AI settings or with direct control?
Hashino: I think it’s more fun to have the party members controlled by their AI, so each member’s characteristics and personality are on vivid display. There were no objections raised among the Persona 3 development team, either. It’s a completely different story, though, if the AI routines used in the game are limited; it wasn’t well received by many of the P3 players. We were on the AI-crafting side, so I guess our tolerance level was higher than that of the players. [laughs]
Mollie: On your staff blog section on the Atlus website, you showed some videos of the development process of Persona 3 while it was still in prototype form. One of the battle system prototypes had the battles seamlessly begin on the same map that the player explores in. With more advanced hardware now available, is this a direction that the team will be considering seriously for future Persona/SMT games?
Hshino: It may be possible, depending on how we lay out the game system. But even if the hardware performance increases, we still have to allocate a decent portion of the console’s finite processing resources to achieve that. If we keep the same system layout that Persona 4 uses, I don’t think we’ll make it one of our top priorities. Though of course, you never know until you actually make the game.
Mollie: In my opinion, Persona 1 and 2 were games that could be a bit tough to enjoy for those gamers who aren’t hardcore into RPGs, but with Persona 3, and especially Persona 4, those games have been created in a way that feels far more inviting to new or more casual players. Is this new direction in accessibility going to be the standard going forward for the Persona series? Do you think this change in focus, as well as the inclusion of things that might appeal to more casual gamers, such as the Social Links system, were a big factor in P3 becoming so popular? As well, in planning both P4 and for the future of the Persona series, what were and are the concerns between balancing the game for the new audience that has come to the series via P3 and P4, and for long-time MegaTen fans who may prefer the more complex nature of the previous Persona titles?
Hashino: To be honest, we never intend to make the games “casual,” so to speak. To make a young-adult title that many RPG fans can enjoy—that was our goal, and as a result, the fact that many people can enjoy them may have given players a different impression from the previous titles. I want more people to enjoy the games that are uniquely Atlus; that’s my stance, and it will remain so as I continue my work.
Mollie: Do you have any personal feelings about Japanese developers’ struggles to stay relevant in the West?
Hashino: For us to do that, I think we need to propose methods of playing and having fun—not to rely on existing ideas, but to simply pursue the ideas that we propose. For example, Persona may look like a complex RPG, but our stance of its development is very simple. And the ideas, no matter what kind, must be fresh. Just as a good chef checks the market early in the morning for fresh food, developers (including myself) should be conscientious about the freshness of their titles.
Mollie: Were you at all surprised by Persona 3‘s success and accolades in the West, especially considering how much of the game directly references daily life in Japan? Did you have any expectations that it would do well here?
Hashino: I didn’t have any expectations. I thought Japanese high school students’ daily lives and annual events would not be accepted overseas at all. As both a developer and a gamer, I can empathize with the western players for their understanding and open-mindedness.
Mollie: Even though Persona 3 and Persona 4 were obviously made with the Japanese audience in mind, were there any times during the development process where you maybe did something differently due to considering the non-Japanese audience?
Hashino: I have to admit, I had no time to take the overseas audience into consideration. I’d like to do so in the next title. The other day, I received a written letter from an overseas Persona 3 fan. From the letter’s words of encouragement, I could feel the passion of our overseas fans. [laughs]
Mollie: Western fans have never had a chance to play an official English version of Persona 2: Innocent Sin. Any chance you could put in a good word or two for us poor Western Persona fans? Perhaps a PSP edition of both P2 chapters?
Hashino: All I can say to them right now is, “I’m sorry!” But we have various plans for the Persona series, so please look forward to them.
Mollie: Persona 4 takes place two years after Persona 3, and the anime Persona Trinity Soul ten years later. Will you stay with a cohesive world and timeline for the Persona series from now on?
Hashino: I don’t have any really strong feelings about it. As far as future titles, there are no plans at this point.
Mollie: American fans miss out on this, but in Japan Persona 3 had novels, comics and drama CDs intersecting through a single timeline. Is it difficult to keep track of such a sprawling multimedia story? Are there similar plans for Persona 4?
Hashino: All the proposals we receive for tie-ins are filled with love for the games, so we exercise only as much quality control as is necessary and leave the rest to the makers. I think this allows the end product to be more fun, so I don’t mind it at all. This applies to Persona 4 as well, so I’m looking forward to its multimedia development.
Mollie: Do you hope to direct another main series MegaTen game, or continue with Persona due to its newfound popularity?
Hashino: I’ve been involved with the main series in games like Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, and the Persona series is my most recent project, so I have strong feelings for both. But I have no strong urge to make a game for any particular series. My wish is to contribute to the Atlus brand by directing a title that people would say, “Only Hashino can make such a game.” Also, continuing to make titles for just one series isn’t good for the development team. I’d like to try different things so we can revitalize the series and make it more enjoyable.
Mollie: There have been Persona cell phone games in Japan, but have PSP and DS been considered?
Hashino: We always consider various platforms in our discussions. In this industry, I’m sure that hardware selection often becomes the key issue from a business management standpoint. But to achieve the most enjoyable gameplay, I believe you must tailor the game concept to the platform and the target user.
Mollie: Do you think Japanese teenagers of today have changed compared to twelve years ago, when the first Persona was released? Did you do any special research to get into the mindset of modern youth?
Hashino: I’ve had opportunities to interact with the adolescents transitioning into adulthood. Although their behavior is different from the way it was in my time, I feel that their essential concerns haven’t changed. The environment and the society they grow up in is definitely different; with the spread of the Internet, and things like the permanent employment system and the emphasis on educational background losing ground, it seems you need to face yourself early on in your life in order to adapt to society.
Mollie: What sort of high school student were you, Mr. Hashino?
Hashino: I remember that I was always playing games. I worked part-time to buy new games and systems. Once, after I had earned the money I wanted, I told my employer that I was quitting, which caused him a lot of trouble. What a jerk, huh? [laughs]
Mollie: What sort of Persona do you wish you had?
Hashino: I already use many facades as I live my life as a member of society, so I don’t think I need another one. [laughs] But lately my shoulders have been stiff, so a Persona that could give me massages would be nice. Maybe Shiva, so he can give me an electric massage?
Mollie: Can we expect a FES-like Persona 4 expansion?
Hashino: We have no plans for that at this time.
Mollie: I have to ask: Persona 5, next gen?
Hashino: Nothing’s set in stone. We are currently looking into many different things.
Mollie: For any of our [ED: Play magazine] readers who never played Persona 3 (even though both our editors Dai and myself giving the game a score of 10 out of 10), what would you most like to say to them in regards to why they should play Persona 4?
Hashino: You should be able to feel the sense of fulfillment and maturity in our latest title. Many players in Japan agreed to this and really enjoyed the game—even the ones who didn’t play Persona 3. If this title piques your interest in any way, I encourage you to try it out. After playing through Persona 4, I bet you’ll want to go back and see what P3 is like.
Mollie: Finally, do you have a message for all of the Western Persona and MegaTen fans?
Hashino: I’d like to evolve the Persona series to new heights. I’m also thinking of trying to make a completely new game, like how we started the Trauma Center series, so please look forward to that. Thank you very much for your continued support.